Sunday, September 14, 2008
contra flow...no go...
Great comments Gang...this is what this blog was supposed to do...share ideas. In catching up on reading the Times-Picayune while I was busy with the hurricanes, what disturbs me is the attitude that was presented in many of the editorials..."I ain't leaving again." Before you call these people stupid, idiots. num-nuts etc...let me tell you I agree with them. Why? Because our public officials don't have their acts together yet. My neighbor left for a condo in Destin before contra-flow began. it took them 8 hours to get from Metairie to Slidell and another 8 hours to get to Destin. 16 hours total on a "normal' 5 hour drive. They had their 80+ year old parents with them and they RIGHTFULLY believe they will NEVER evacuate again. What do I tell them? I agree with them. I think I'd rather chance it staying in my 2 story home with a generator, shutters and supplies than chance it on the highway for 16 hours. Levees break? I have 2 stories. power goes out? I have a gas generator. Stores not open? I have enough food and water for over a week. What do I tell them? MY opinion is for them to stay. What do you think? Don't be like caveman...I want SOLUTIONS not whining about irresponsibile people. I want your suggestions to contra flow & re-entry. how do we fix it?
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Bob: Okay, you would like some comments. I spent several hours in a walk-in closet at my sister's house north of Diamondhead, MS. I have never been so scared in my entire life. I had the same fear during Gustav, even though we only had gusts of wind. The Katrina fear has NOT left me. I won't stay again. My sanity was/is at stake. I learned from Katrina and she was a good teacher. Call me a wimp/baby......whatever. I can't/won't fault anyone for their decisions. I don't have that right. I can only speak for myself. I watch you, Bob, and the weather channel. We have ample time to prepare one way or the other. My husband and I are going to set $25 a month away in a special fund for NEXT season. That way, we can go, if need be. Thank you again Bob for all that you do. Come ON FALL/COLD WEATHER.....LOL
Tell them not to wait so late next time to leave.
To leave or not to leave - all depends on where you live and how your family can cope with the weather and the after effects.
It's better to leave early and safe than to otherwise.
OOPS.......I meant to start my comment with the fact that I spent several hours in a closet during KATRINA.......NOT Gustav or IKE. Sorry for the confusion.
I'm glad somebody is crediting people who have decided not to evacuate in the future with some intelligence.
What struck me was that there was no contraflow even on the Sunday morning when we evacuated up causeway and west on I12. Traffic was travelling in the opposite direction on the other lanes on each road we hit.
Once we'd arrived, we watched reporters happily talk throughout Sunday and Monday about contraflow over live pictures of roads with traffic moving in both directions. On your channel too, Bob! If contraflow isn't both lanes moving in the same direction, what the hell is it? No wonder there were extensive delays. That, plus the daft delayed return, leaves a lot of people with no other option.
Anyone who calls them/us/stayers stupid needs some humanity and common sense. People here aren't idiots: they survive without power frequently outside hurricane season, and they are much more self-reliant than elsewhere.
Great reporting Bob, throughout the build-up and since.
Finally, a response to Joe: people who left on Friday, which was about as early as anyone could leave, and then if they got the day off, were in traffic for as long as anyone else.
Wow....I didn't notice the time that you posted your blog, Bob...but are we all stumped?
I thought and thought...as I'm sure you do, each time that Contraflow starts. I have a few observations:
1) There needs to be better coordination between LA/MS/FL officials...When folks got to the Mississippi line, there were slowdowns seemingly because of the police/lack of coordination.
2) The routes need to be re-evaluated to avoid bottle necking. In Slidell, all traffic comes to one spot...State roads are not well utilized, and are left for local folks that stay.
3) Perhaps coordination between Parishes/Counties, giving each certain evacuation times (southern parishes and those outside of levees leave first!)....so that all of the traffic doesn't hit the same roads at once. It just seemed to me, that everyone in Jefferson, St. Tammany and New Orleans left roughly at the same times....this should be re-evaluated, and depending upon the direction of evacuation (north, east, west) a numeric system given to parishes on when to leave.
I don't know if this is the answer, but to me, the problem goes farther. I think that folks SHOULD be able to stay...but that means, having a second floor (should ALL new construction below sea level be REQUIRED to be raised?), having hurricane construction standards (all new homes MUST) and generators, food, etc.
Seems to me, that if we are gonna live here, we SHOULD be prepared and it should be somewhat taught YEAR ROUND so that no one is left behind in this thinking!
It will take time, but it has to start somewhere.
I would not risk taking elderly, sick, weak folks....and sitting them in a hot car for 14-16 hours.
I dunno, common sense should rule...if you are elderly, sick...GET OUT EARLY!! But, folks freeze in danger, and just wait...
To me, hurricane plans being enforced, and constant education is needed. The "old timers" say that they "stayed in the old days..." BUT, as it's been pointed out, the wetlands were here to protect in the past, and the population wasn't so large (and difficult to evacuate). THIS THINKING MUST CHANGE: You must be TOTALLY PREPARED, OR LEAVE.
Leaving AND RE-ENTRY need to both be re-evaluated!
Stormzz
How about some National Guardsmen or police etc., direct traffic at the end of the contra flow and in between at the exits? Also, local officials need to stop the idiots with signs or waving on the top of the bridges, for crossing over the interstates. They slowed traffic, as rubber-neckers slowed to look at them. You would think when the traffic started to move, the drivers would go forward, no matter what there is to distract....
"Don't be like caveman...I want SOLUTIONS not whining about irresponsibile people." See there you go yet again... I thought you had said this blog is not to attack people?
The solution is to be accountable for yourself and your family simple as that. If it took your neighbor 8 hours to get from Metairie to Slidell that there tells me they waited until the last minute or until some mandatory order said get out. Esp if they had their 80 yr old parents with them you don't wait until it gets to the point when the public officials have to tell you to leave. Be accountable, don't wait go early to beat the traffic which has been preached countless times by the the local officials and media including FOX 8. Of course if you wait until a storm is 2 days to leave you are going to be in alot of traffic, what do you expect when you have million plus people leaving at the same time or even if staggered, there is no way the highways can handle that many cars and there is no way gas stations can handle or keep enough fuel for a million cars that decide to gas up all of a sudden 2 days out from a storm. Accountablity again, how many years and how many storms does it take for people to prepare and have esstential items such as generators etc. How many flooding events does it take for people to understand you CAN NOT stop mother nature. Army Corp did not build all the levee systems BEFORE people decided to live on the coast they built them after in an attempt to try and protect those that love to live below-sea level or in a marsh. Solution leave early simple.
Same goes with long periods of no power, what do you expect when thousands of power lines are ripped down? Unless you want to pay triple for your power to allow the power companies to have underground utilities and have thousands of lineman on standby get used to it and be prepared for it.
Bob rocks...
Dawna, I wanted to comment on what you said! I LOVE your idea of setting aside money for hurricane season. As I said, preparing is EVERYTHING....and can make the difference between life and death.
Wasn't everyone told after Betsy, to have an ax in the attic? Yet, folks did not during Katrina.
I feel your situation, having spent time in a closet. I love storms, and do a bit of chasing myself...or rather DID, prior to Katrina. I know many who just fill with tears, myself included, when a blowing thunder storm wakes them during the night. We all don't want to talk about this, but it NEEDS to be told....
I saw first hand, so many horrors after Katrina...and although I'd love to see an empty city when a storm comes, i still can support those who stay, WITH A WELL THOUGHT OUT, and EXECUTED plan. But NEVER should anyone be in rising waters, or killed by a storm.
As I said, be prepared or have a plan to get out. Unfortunately, I don't think that the BEST plan is there to get folks to safety.
Sorry to be so wordy, but it's a problem for us all...it's personal, emotional, and expensive when deciding to stay or go...and to change our homes, incurring costs (should the government assist with those who can't afford home modification?)in evacuations.
It's a tough problem living here, and with these whirling balls of terror! For all of that, I think we can all be safe...EDUCATION is the answer!
Dawna, I am sorry for what you experienced. But, I'm happy that you have learned and hope that you will help others to understand what can happen to them!
Stormzz
16 hours to get to Destin is be better and safer than 18 hours in your attic during a hurricane and days after days without water or power. Ask some of those who did stay. Like I also said, it all depends on where you live and your family's condition.
Also, wanted to comment on lack of hotel rooms available, I heard people, just standing in line at supermarket before evacuation. They were chatting about how many places that they had booked hotel rooms. This makes it so hard for those of us who have not done so. I was attempting to drive to Monroe, but did not make it. I was lucky enough to contact a smaller hotel, the number retrieved from my GPS for surrounding lodging and book a hotel, after begging. I know that so many were not able, and slept in their cars, while innkeepers held rooms for people that had no plans of using them.
SOLUTION:
Let's have the federal gov't build hotels along the evacuation routes with million rooms ready, have them build extra gas stations all long the evacuation routes, have them build special meal prep centers all long the evacuation routes, have them take care of all the evacs bills through a special online bill payment system, have them buy a car to have on standby for those that don't have cars, have them buy everyone a NOAA weather radio along with a computer and pay for online services so everyone will know what is going on, and let's have a system set up by the feds to change everyone's babies diaper too.
Dang gang we live on the coast be PREPARED and be ACCOUNTABLE for your own life and family. You want to stay fine but don't complain later and I say if you stay and have to be rescued later by Coast Guard by dropping a frogman down to stick you in a basket and lift you to safety then fine but expect a bill later for it.
Thank You Stormzz for your comments. Oh, we learned BIG TIME. We have a generator; food; supplies, etc. As you already know MS was in the eye of Katrina. We had just retired here from CA on June 29, 2005. We knew NOTHING of hurricanes and neither did my sister and her husband. It was a mandatory evacuation from Diamondhead. What did we know.....NOTHING!!!! But the point is, we know NOW. I also agree with Bob that the category of the storm is NOT the important issue. Ike took up 85% of the gulf. HELLO!!!!!!!!! That was a big sucker.....LOL. Being on the East quandrant is also a factor. Over and over again, we were told that THAT is the most dangerous side. I don't want anyone to live in fear year round and dread summer. THAT is no way to live. However, education is a MUST. Being in that closet during Katrina I HEARD the sound of a freight train and I KNOW there was a tornado passing thru the yard. I have read and read about people being in an attic and taking an axe to the roof so they can get out before they drown. Please, please, anyone that reads these blogs and hears the stories.....educate yourselves and get your supplies a little bit at a time and set some money aside even if it's $10 a month. Then the decision to go or stay is UP TO YOU........not anyone else. The weathermen; TV stations; mayors.....they have our SAFETY and well being in mind. They don't want ANY OF US to suffer in any way. We have to trust them and if some of the leaders do not have our safety and well being in mind, then we as citizens have voting power to elect the people that DO have us in mind. THAT is one of the wonderful things about living in America. Okay, I'll get off my soap box now before I get THROWN off. Thank you for listening. Have a good week everyone.
Contra FLow does have issues. The main two being 1) Hwy 59. If Mississippi evacuates when LA does, there are two choices. I-59 and I-65. I-59 is closer, and since MS puts contra flow into I-10 also, east past 59 is a no go because MS has I10 as a westbound route to 59. MS and LA people meet at 59 on their way out, causing traffic jams. LA State Police Commander and MS State Police Commander need to sit down together and discuss how to avoid this next time.
2) The theory is lower parishes go first, and it continues parish by parish up from the coast. Nice theory, but it doesn't work. No matter what you tell people, they leave when they want, and the result is 2 million cars trying to use 6 lanes of interstate which then drops to four lanes. not good. I think tow trucks should be contracted to standy by along the evacuation route to remove disabled vehicles. Station gas trucks that can SELL gas to cars that did not fill up when they knew the storm was coming and are now about to run out because of sitting in traffic.
The easiest way I see to avoid this (which is not feasable to most) is to leave early, usually before there is a certain landfall stated.
I also firmly believe re-entry should be controlled. We need to have medical personel to run the hospitals, business owners to open the food stores/gas stations, and power crews working to restore power before the general population comes back. If the population comes back to early, resources(military) are directed to places that have to set up first aid centers, food/water distribution centers, gas etc when the military should be out with the police in neighborhoods to control the low life looters.
Okay, so this was a little longer than it should have been... but some things need to change. I feel the decision to evacuate is a personal decision, and should be made knowing full well what the cost could be.
"Station gas trucks that can SELL gas to cars that did not fill up when they knew the storm was coming and are now about to run out because of sitting in traffic."
Oh yeah I can just picture couple hundred cars in a single behind a tanker truck trying to get gas.
The SOLUTION: The gov't should go door to door ringing door bells asking the homeowners if they would like their car filled up with gas! I say if you wait until it is too late to fill up and leave and you run out of gas then tuff luck. Be ACCOUNTABLE!
Thoughts for those that decide to stay next time:
Dawna in MS has a great thought, put money aside each month in a special savings account just for evacuation expenses, and NEVER touch it until you have to leave due to a storm.
If you stay, put two cases of water, a case of MRE's or non perishable food, an axe(large), and a red blanket (to wave around as a signal for help) in your attic to store year round. And maybe a floatation device.
I actually agree with Caveman. (Don't get a big head) You have to be accountable for yourself and your family. We left Baton Rouge Saturday morning and made it to Pensacola in 4 hours. I don't buy Matt's comment that people were stuck in traffic Friday, at least not as bad as those who left Sunday. I have a two year old, so I made the decision to leave EARLY!
another issue is jobs. if you're not able to take off from work to leave earlier than everyone else, what can you honestly do? i understand that companies cannot run by themselves, but if ppl have a special need such as elderly family members or small children that cannot tolerate a long car ride, i think there should be some understanding and an exception or two. i have a 4 month old, and was not able to leave town until 7pm saturday night (for gustav), and traffic was horrible for us. grnated we took the causeway and that shaved off some time since there wasn't much traffic there, but I-59 was horrible. my son is not at the age where i can just let him cry. i was having to pull over to the shoulder to check on him, and stopping at quite a few exits to get him out of the car because traffic was such a mess and i was just sitting there for long periods of time.
My solution is that the east-west corridor, i.e. I-10, must remain open in both directions, especially in Mississippi. Forcing everyone north at the 12/10 junction was a huge mistake.
We took US-90 from the Rigolets all the way to Mobile and then got on I-10 and avoided all gridlock, on Sunday before Gustav. Each time we passed in view of I-10, it was practically stopped dead while we sailed along at 60mph on US-90, the old coastal highway, enjoying a wonderful sunrise on Mississippi Sound to boot.
I'd suggest that officials encourage more use of alternate routes and show these on escape route maps that are handed out.
I also think contraflow north should be extended as far north as Meridian so when they squahs it back down to two lanes it won't immediately back up all the way to New Orleans.
Some do need to leave in the event of a storm. Others, e.g. those who have a generator, two-story house, supplies, etc. may not need to. Houston may well have it right. Perhaps we need to re-think this whole concept of "clear out the entire city/parish." As a practical matter, it's simply not practical to be doing that continually over and over every few years. Evacuation really and truly is a drastic approach, and not only that, it hinders or impedes post-storm cleanup and recovery. Of course, policy needs to be oriented first around flood protection and building standards as regards structural ability to stand up to hurricane-force winds. And...if there is that flood protection in place and someone's house might well be able to survive whatever wind forces and then they also have supplies and a generator then whose business is it really, then, to be telling them that they absolutely have to leave and go through all of the trouble involved in an evacuation? I've known of a lot of people who seem to feel -- and, to me, rightly so -- that they could well get caught in bad weather, etc. on the road and thus it's hardly clear that evacuation is a definite route to more safety. Moreover, many people, as events have unfortunately shown, do have reason to be concerned about the security of their property in these events. And, yes, not everyone may be able to get off work in time to be able to leave early. But, of course, some people definitely will need to evacuate, however, the more who can realistically "hunker down the less the headaches on the road will be for those who don't have a choice. Bottom line: public policy should be oriented around helping more people to not feel totally compelled to evacuate coninually time after time as well as around differentiating between those who can avoid evacuation and those do need to leave.
ok mabey contra flow west from kenner to baton rouge needs to be all 4 lanes all the way to baton rouge and then u can go 61north or 190west on i 10west or i 49north or i 55north. ok now east this is were it gets bad if u get on causeway all 4 lanes u stay on it till u get to were u can take 190 west and 25 and 21 north and stay on it till u get to hwy 98 and then go to mccomb and hit i55 or i59 at hattiesburg. i10 east needs to stay all 4 lanes to the 59 split and 59 needs to stay 4 lanes to i20 and theay need to open hwy 49north from hattiesburg to i20. thats all i can think of. going east there is not much that can be dun with it. and if thay stage the evac mabey but if everybody stay till the last day and then go like it has been for the past years it will never work
The one things that is repeated over and over at the beginning of hurricane season...
Everyone needs to make sure they have a game plan and check list in place for their family and not wait until 3-4 days before landfall to THINK about what they need to do.
A couple more thoughts...
Gasoline: I agree that it is not practical to have "gas trucks" lined up on the highway...but perhaps before a storm, governments could coordinate with the oil industry to double up on delivery to our area. I had lots of gasoline at my home, but was driving back from Venice the Friday before Gustav, and could NOT find gas anywhere! FInally, I managed to get a couple of gallons before they ran out, after they were filled up 2 hours prior.
Food...perhaps, we should all make an effort to stock up from the beginning of Hurricane season, until the end...avoiding the grocery store rush!
I agree totally that we should all be accountable, and be well prepared for WHATEVER we do. BUT, not everyone who lives here understands hurricanes (as dawna said) as they may be from elsewhere, and some folks are just very simple and want to be told what to do.
I think that insurance companies should play a role in letting folks know if their home is structurally able to withstand a hurricane...but it is so much more complex than this! Having a generator, a strong two story home and lots of food can be misleading security to MANY! Everyone needs to know that if they stay, it will be hot, miserable, and NO services will be available. No phone, tv, doctors, hospitals, gas stations, groceries....and if they are elderly, or ill, or very young, staying would be insane!
I dunno, would having each family undergo a hurricane assessment for their families and homes be an option? WHo would do such?
....THEN, we have contraflow!! LOL...I agree with the poster who said it needs to be contra, lol. I too was puzzled by traffic going in two different directions towards and from Slidell. Made no sense to me....
Bob, maybe you can come up with something?
Stormzz
Oh, one more thing...
I have talked to several folks who are on VERY limited income, and saving $10 a month is simply not possible. It's not possible for them to do anything but evacuate. These folks ALSO, do not have family here who can help them with evacuation. THIS IS MORE cOMMON than you think!
If you were in New Orleans, help was available with getting those needing assistance out. In St Tammany, St John, no such help was available. I personally know folks who stayed, and should this have been Katrina, disaster would have befallen these folks.
My point is, that while it's great for me to bunker down and stay, and be prepared, some folks just don't have this option.
We need to make sure that in EVERY parish, no man is left behind. Neighbor caring for neighbor, neighborhoods checking on other neighborhoods. SOmetimes, if we don't do it, no one else will!
Hope ya'll have a great day tomorrow! I'm enjoying everyone's thinking...and this blog!
Stormzz
We left the Westbank at 9pm Saturday night to go to Bham. When we hit the traffic at Claiborne, we got off at Elysian Fields and took local roads and got back on at Michoud. We were the ONLY car on some of those roads. I bet we shaved a couple hours off getting out of the city. We only had to deal with the traffic to get to the twin spans. AND, once we passed the news reporter with all their bright lights causing rubbernecking (at the entrance to the t.s.) then it was smooth sailing for the rest of the trip.
It seems important for everyone to buy an atlas and figure out ways to get from "here to there" using something besides interstates.
So far everything I have seen all goes back to being ACCOUNTABLE for yourself and family. Ike was not the first hurricane to hit in the Gulf coast! After Katrina hit and all the news she made there is no excuse for anyone new to the coast not to understand what could happen. You would think people are 1st graders since they have to be taught the samething over and over and over again at beginning of hurricane season. Don't buy that people because of income levels can't save $10 a month since they are more than likely getting back $5,000 plus every January from Uncle Sam! People that work in New York and DC areas etc spend 4 hours a day just going to work and back, I think spending 8 hours to evacuate to save your life is not a big deal.
Wow ...I just don't even know what to say to that, but feel that something needs to be said...
$5,000 back from Uncle Sam? Do you know what the largest demographically growing group in our country is? The elderly. They aren't getting ANYTHING back once a year. Many of them had a home that was paid for before Katrina, one car, and a fixed income. Now? They are in a trailor, the one bought by their small retirement savings....This is the fastest growing sect of our population.
I just think that the Department of Disaster Preparedness needs to be the Department of Hurricane Preparedness here in LA. In California, there are home/building inspections for ANY damaged building after an earthquake. If the building does not meet newer codes after repairs, it is REMOVED, for long term safety ...and the people there compensated for their loss! Here, many people in St. Bernard went back to beat up homes...WHY? Because that is all that they have in life.
I don't know the solution, but I know that we need to be mindful of ALL people in our future plans, ESPECIALLY those who can not be accountable for WHAT EVER REASON.
Why would they live here? Because it's home. They have lived here, their families have lived here...for several hundred years. When did our society start to forget it's own? Sad to me.
The Laws of Thermodynamics says it all to me.
Law #1: The energy of the universe, over time, remains the same! We lose wetlands, we rebuild wetlands...we're even. We let it wash away, the shelf becomes more shallow, the water comes in. We re-build the coast, we stay protected.
Law #2: In any system, the disorder increases over time....THIS is a basic law ....SO, we must constantly increase the order and have a way to do so...or things will simply deteriorate more over time. Traffic will, homes will, our coast will.
Again, I don't have the solution, but we need to do something. Trying to reason that folks should all take care of themselves? Well, old folks, sick folks...they have followed these two laws. Their worlds are pretty ragged. It's up to us who have it together to help those who can't.
That's just the way that I see it...
Stormzz
Sorry not sure where you get your info but the elderly are NOT the fastest growing demographic group in South Louisiana which is the area we are talking about. 2000 Census has only 11.7% of New Orleans area residents are over 65 yrs old and only 4.2% are over 75. The fastest growing demographic group is the Hispanic community and not just in New Orleans but in the country.
"If the building does not meet newer codes after repairs, it is REMOVED, for long term safety ...and the people there compensated for their loss! Here, many people in St. Bernard went back to beat up homes...WHY? Because that is all that they have in life." Why should tax payers that don't live in the area say Shreveport, La pay for those that choose to live below sea level or right next to a lake or next to the ocean and then flood and expect to be compenstated by the gov't for their losses?
"Department of Disaster Preparedness needs to be the Department of Hurricane Preparedness here in LA." Might as well change it to the Departmant of Hold Your Hand during Hurricane Season Dept. It all goes back to being accountable for yourself and family. In the old days everyone did for themselves now days it's everyone wanting the gov't to do it all for them or pick up the slack for their lack of common sense.
(Last post "timed-out" so my apologies if it comes through as a dupe at a later time)
I agree with several comments above, many points by stormzz and one by Caveman (accountability). I would also like to note I rarely agree with Caveman and notice his predictions about everyone staying in Galveston being a fool and basically facing imminent death was both insulting and proven incredibly wrong. I do agree that people need to be accountable, with common sense to know who should risk staying and who should bail, as well as a number of other excellent points made by different people.
For one to say anyone can afford to set aside 10 dollars a month is a philosophy that would also dictate that there is no single straw that breaks the camel's back. The truth of the matter is everyone has a limit, and many people across this country are facing bankruptcy and foreclosures for being beyond their limits. It is naive to think that everyone has a little more when the fact is that many people already have less than they need.
Now, for possible solutions to contraflow ... having a great big river that can support freighters seems to often go unmentioned by those tasked with organizing evacuations.
The re-entry nightmare and immediate aftermath complications are exacerbated by a philosophy that the government often treats people as children. If the roads weren't blocked off to normal citizens, people would be more inclined to be able to evacuate for a few hours knowing they can return at their leisure afterwards. This beats the concept of someone firing a starter pistol to begin the mad dash of everyone back into areas at the exact same time. This would also utilize a huge resource in search and rescue .. the actual people, neighbors, family, etc. sorting through rubble and freeing up people like the National Guard to focus their precious energy on tasks ordinary people are incapable of doing. Citizens helping citizens is what societies have done since the dawn of civilization, I don't see why the whole concept had to be re-invented just to create as many problems as it allegedly fixes. With the advances of technology we could use it to enhance policies while still utilizing the good will of people.The downside of this would be the potential for looters (more people back would prevent much of it, though) and congestion for utility companies to restore services .. which brings me to another point that people should expect disasters to be disastrous, and not expect millions of outages to be restored overnight. But, all in all, people are still naive about preparedness, consequences, and what it means to ignore mandatory evacuation orders. On the other hand, the government treats people like children and then the people act like children. The whole mentality of considering able bodied adults as potential victims and the victim complex many able bodied adults display, cause needless headaches.
Oh, for the record, I stayed during Katrina (Uptown N.O. .. no flooding, well above sea level) and Gustav and will stay through anything I don't consider a looming catastrophe. And, unlike prophets of disaster (you know who you are), I believe in making responsible decisions and accepting the responsibility for them (not to predict doom and gloom and they change my opinion to accountability ;)). This is why although I strongly dislike the Fox Network's national news system, the only person I trust when it comes to hurricanes is Bob Breck and his crew. Thanks, Bob, for treating us like people who are capable of making informed decisions, anything less, although extremely common, is intellectually insulting. What can I say, I prefer not to subject myself to Chicken Little styled forecasts and political scare-mongering.
One note to Caveman's last post. To compare age demographics with that of ethnicity is transparent spinning. Hispanic people also get old, there is therefore positive correlation between the two, which prevents equal and opposite distinction between the elderly and Hispanics. You already know this, though, don't you? ;)
Bob, very disappointed that you are suggesting that someone stay back with an elderly family memeber - this is extremly irresponsible on your part - you should suggest that they leave earlier if need be. Suppose they had stayed for Katrina.. YES, they can have generator power, YES, they can have food and water, but suppose that elderly person has medical issues that are needed unexpectedly... then what Bob? Tis, Tis on you... you stuck your head out on that one.. wonder how many people took that advise on Galveston Island.
Suncatcher...I see your point, and I understood NOT that Bob was saying that the elderly should stay, but that it COULD be a better option than sitting 20 hours in a car!~
The main point, is that something better has to be done as far as evacuation and re-entry. What we have now is only as good as the weak points in the plan. There are a lot, making evacuation (on one's own) potentially unsafe given certain situations.
My home is very safe...and I'd rather have my parents with me, rather than on a highway of uncertainty for who knows how long! BUT, if they were very ill, I'd use my head and get them out early.
The problem here, is that not everyone has good judgement, some are naive, some very simple...SOMEONE has to get a foolproof plan together for those who can't do it for themselves!
THere will always be leaders and followers. Look around....there are a lot more followers than leaders...only if they are led in the wrong direction, chaos ensues!
Stormzz
ok contra no flow is as good as it gets too many people for the set up that we have.what people need to do is get prepared for this time of the year.what i did in FEBRUARY was started to get my supplies gas food medical and so on.the metro kenner metairie orleans and most of the upper westbank can take on a cat3 with cat 3 surge up to 12 foot we will not have power and some flooding that we have been putting up with for years but be prepared for what will go on now a big storm or one pushing 15+ surge get out. thats what we need to look at and not that it has 130mph wind. the news usees scare tactics to get people to get out and thats all good some people go off of what the news will tell u . that needs to change all news is bad news,good news gets no viewers so why show good news u no what im getting at.im not saying to stay all the time if u see an ike, a big big storm get out we cant take that tipe of storm but u dont need to go when a storm gets in the gulf every time. but we need to get prepared for it. we as a hole has become scared and run from a tropical storm. and for 45 minutes all u hear from the news is if the levy will hold and what the cops are doing to stop the looting and then they give bob 15 minutes out of a hour to talk weather at that time whe weather needs to be 30+ minutes so he can get his word out thats is more important than watching people at gas stations and talking to the chef of nopd. i am so sick of hearing this needs to change and that needs to change. talk about it and it will never get dun we the people need to get up off of our but and make a change and prepare and not gust have the only plain is to run.we have become so dependent on the government that most dont know what to do and the government has a plain to tell everybody to get and thats it. the hell with the people that stay. more needs to be dun on getting the people prepared.when Gustav hit we had to use winter fuel supplies and get food shiped in from outer state to stock the stores the government is no more prepared than we are
"Caveman and notice his predictions about everyone staying in Galveston being a fool and basically facing imminent death was both insulting and proven incredibly wrong." Don't believe caveman ever said that! geeze whizz did say that they are a fools but did not say faced imminent death.. although the death toll is now up to 27! Also didn't compare hispanics to elderly... I would say Cavemans predictions have been pretty good so far! Said GUstav would hit around TX/LA line, came pretty close... said same for Ike came even closer!
"the chef of nopd. i am so sick of hearing this needs to change and that needs to change. talk about it and it will never get dun we the people need to get up off of our but and make a change and prepare and not gust have the only plain is to run" What? This is our problem.
when i say the hell with the people that stay thats what i feel when the news is on when a storm is on its way. all they talk about is to get out. all they say is not to stay or if u do stay it will be the worst thing u have ever dun in your life is to stay when a storm is on it way.i ran 1 time all the rest of them i got prepared and rode it out.they need to tell u its ok to ride one out and not to run from all of them. i know what i say may sound nuts but u dont need to run all the time 85% of the time u ride it out the wind blows it it may flood hear and there and the flooding in the city is no worse than we get when we have on a bad rain storm 90% of the time. the news needs to play more of the role and not gust for every storm telling people to get out
We left on Sunday 9:30AM and went to Dallas...only took 11 hours. The only stopping we had was in Tyler, Texas because of construction. Contraflow worked for us right through Lafayette.
This is our problem. 90% of the people only plain is to run and that it
I take exception to a couple of things Kathleen said. First of all, the ppl who crossed the medians to the normally-correct side of the Interstate did so because they couldn't exit the Interstate and THEY HAD TO USE THE RESTROOM! It is ludicrous to think that human beings can continue on in contra-flow for eight plus hours without a restroom break. If I never see another elderly man urinating on the grass next to my stuck-in-traffic car again it will be too soon. And the ladies who had husbands who could hold up a blanket for privacy as they sqatted in the grass were the lucky ones! Some of us were ladies with children and didn't want to simply pull down our pants, fanny to the breeze, in front of all who were in the parking lot they called contra-flow! I knew I may lose my house and possessions, but I was hanging on to my dignity, for heavens sake!
Another thing, as I cruised at five miles an hour, I personally waved at folks standing on bridges with signs stating they were praying for me. They were the only reason for a smile that evacuation, that's for sure.
I take exception to a couple of things Kathleen said. First of all, the ppl who crossed the medians to the normally-correct side of the Interstate did so because they couldn't exit the Interstate and THEY HAD TO USE THE RESTROOM! It is ludicrous to think that human beings can continue on in contra-flow for eight plus hours without a restroom break. If I never see another elderly man urinating on the grass next to my stuck-in-traffic car again it will be too soon. And the ladies who had husbands who could hold up a blanket for privacy as they sqatted in the grass were the lucky ones! Some of us were ladies with children and didn't want to simply pull down our pants, fanny to the breeze, in front of all who were in the parking lot they called contra-flow! I knew I may lose my house and possessions, but I was hanging on to my dignity, for heavens sake!
Another thing, as I cruised at five miles an hour, I personally waved at folks standing on bridges with signs stating they were praying for me. They were the only reason for a smile that evacuation, that's for sure.
LOL now the gov't has to hand out toilet paper and provide Johnny Cans? Everything mentioned so far in this forum seems to me to go right back to LEAVE EARLY! and if you can't you have to just deal with it and PREPARE. Before hurricane season get everything done (not dun) that you need to accomplish, it is just (not gust) that simple.
the government will need to give fema 2weeks to get the toilet paper to get there lol.and i no i cant spell that great but i try lol
we need more people like caveman that tell u like it is and not give u all the bs that u hear
This is just a response to Caveman.
"Don't believe caveman ever said that! geeze whizz did say that they are a fools but did not say faced imminent death.. although the death toll is now up to 27! "Caveman, my friend, I stand corrected on the "imminent death" part. A lesser extent was definitely implied with the quote "Hope those fools that decided to stay in Gaveston realize that many life insurance policies..."
The death toll being up to 27... the last I heard it was in the lower single digits for Galveston (more deaths in LA than TX). However, I'll use the quote I am referencing, and do note you did say "could" in "Ike could cost more than Katrina in both $ and lives if as many people stayed as the estimate." It is projected to be the third worst costliest disaster, less than Katrina. The death toll is not even in the same league.
As for comparing Hispanics to elderly, you most certainly did by attempting to make a correction on the biggest demographic being Hispanics and not the elderly, when the fact is those are comparisons between two different demographic schemes, one corresponding to age age and a completely unrelated one with ethnicity.
But, I do not wish to abuse Bob's blog with a debate. We agree on personal responsibility being crucial, and that is a bigger issue than predictions. As for as predictive accuracy, keep in mind that there is a world of difference between being accurate and being precise. So far all of my predictions have been accurate with hurricanes and whether they'll impact New Orleans within the last couple of decades (since I started caring about it), but it's sheer luck and I don't even attempt any precision because my gut is not a science, and tends to be biased in my favor. ;)
I just mostly wish people would stop prophecizing disaster based on worst case scenarios and opt to be realistic instead. Surely one who fends off dinosaurs can empathize with people who are prepared and act responsibly to withstand mother nature's ferocity of a mere cat2-3. May it also be known that half of Galveston island is fine .. but that's not the half the news keeps showing (it doesn't sell as well as human misery). The devastation came from the surge making its way into the bay and then rear-ended the west coast. The seawall, fortunately, fended off the frontal surge assault just fine. With these things it's never really the wind (unless we get into cat 4 and 5 territory) but the surge. It's a risk, but calculating the risk is paramount in being prepared to deal with its consequences.
I got an atlas and drove back roads and highways to Florence, AL for Gustav. My normally 8 hr trip took... 10 hours. (I have 2 kids under 3 so we stopped to eat and stretch twice.) I didn't bother with contraflow and traffic. Of course it was easier than getting out of New Orleans because I live on the North Shore. But I believe there are several highways and back roads that could be used all along South Louisiana for people to get out. No sense in putting a million people in one small area on the interstate all at once and expecting traffic to flow freely.
About expecting the government to take care of folks....
We pay our elected officials to make decisions for the masses...and you know, they are MY and YOUR elected public servants. I'm sorry, but I want them to do their jobs...in this state, HURRICANES are a big deal...and they need to act responsibly in planning and recovery!
As for Shreveport tax dollars paying for anything down here....Well, my tax dollars pay to help with mudslides in California, because folks build on cliffs, and forest fires all over the place. My tax dollars pay for schools and hospitals that I'll never use. In this country, we are a government BY THE PEOPLE, FOR THE PEOPLE so ....
It's time this country pull together for worthy needs of the PEOPLE, and not just for making a median in Cornerstone Montana look pretty!
That's my two cents...
Stormzz
back roads could be used all along will help contra flow
"that half of Galveston island is fine .. " ?
The ONLY reason why you are not seeing hundreds dead is because the eye of the storm went directly over Galveston Island thus the big surge missing it, if it Ike had not turned more to the North that last day it would have been a different story which was what the certain death statement was based on. Mudslides and wildfires happen alot but they are no where on the scare of hurricane damage plus the states pick up most of the tab with Feds chipping in little. Plus mudslides are small isolated events which only cover a few miles at best, unlike Hurricanes which cover hundreds to thousands of miles of coastline not inlcuding the miles of destruction inland as well.
"The ONLY reason why you are not seeing hundreds dead"
You can't say "the only reason" and then give a deviation from what turned into a flawed prediction. Any circumstance being different in the thousands that contributed to path, surge fluctuation, circumference, and intensity are all determining factors. All that matters is what actually happened. An example, I could say everyone in Galveston had zero risk, and then come back and say the only reason fell in in danger was because the storm went into the gulf rather than up the east coast of the States. The "what ifs" simply do not matter. Half of Galveston suffered mostly bearable wind damage (recorded gusts weren't even impressive for a city being hit by a cat2). Of course some gusts may have been left unmeasured as instruments started failing. Yes, farther north had worse winds and surge, as was expected. That is the bottom line and as entertaining as speculation is, possibilities that didn't happen become moot. That is why so much time, energy, and resources go into predicting paths, because the end result is all that matters.
I fully agree that mudslides and most other natural disasters impact a much smaller expanse of land than do hurricanes. I do know I would much rather have a hurricane to prepare for than have a mountain side, without warning, collapse on my head. ;)
random you really need to catch up on the damage reports for Galveston.
A few people mentioned this in their comments, but I wanted to post my agreement. I don't know the 'back roads' or even the state highways in Louisiana, so I can't say what they are like there. I know that when my husband and I evacuated for Katrina, we took state highways (15 and 11, along with a few others) to get all the way to Meridian. We occasionally saw another car here and there, but it was mostly just us. We, too, saw cars backed up and stuck in unmoving traffic along 59 while we drove past. People really do need to pull out those maps, plan a non-interstate route when possible (I know there are some places that may not have great options). If you don't want to buy a map, stop at the Louisiana and Mississippi welcome centers on the way in/out of town and pick up a free one.
As for pushing contra-flow all the way to Meridian, that wouldn't work. Laurel, maybe. We had to get onto the interstate at Meridian in our evacuation for Katrina, and it was pretty gridlocked there. Interstates 20 and 59 meet there, and the merging/bottle-necking in that area is pretty bad as it is. If you add another two lanes of northbound traffic to that bottle-necking, I can't see how that would help. Laurel, however, is another (guessing) 30 or so miles north of Hattiesburg. At the moment, their interstate is being straightened out so that it flows better, so maybe once that's done, it would be a viable option.
"Throughout the region more than 30,000 acres (12,000 hectares) have already burned and more areas are threatened. The wildfires have caused the loss of human life and serious injuries," his office said in a statement.
THIS was a direct quote from the Gov of CA. 30,000 acres is a lot of land in my book Caveman. You are talking about apples and oranges here. You CANNOT compare a hurricane with a wildfire. Last time I checked the DEVASTATION is the SAME whether it is on a small scale or a large scale. You wanna tell the people in CA to stop whining about what they have lost or WHOM they have lost because in your world a hurricane is worse? I don't think so. AND, it seems we are getting off Bob's blog. He asked how to IMPROVE things not redicule and compare other disasters.
Sorry, I've been reading this off and on all day and me being ME, I just had to comment.
Caveman, you mean Galveston was hit by some additional disaster that Houston's own news stations are oblivious to on their live webcasts, although they often report from the island itself? Or did some catastrophe come along and flatten the East side of Galveston after the storm ... bulldozers perhaps, or maybe stampeding cattle? Interesting. Or did you mean the body count? ... it's hard to know since you were intentionally ambiguous about which point you challenged.
Caveman, I humbly suggest you double check your sources about information specific to Galveston, not Ike in general (also note we are not talking about high-rise buildings in downtown Houston, which allegedly reported cat 4 winds because of height). If you beg to differ with me, fine, give me statistics, not assumptions or unsupported claims. I proved a few errors in the predictions you tout so egocentrically, please feel free to prove me wrong in anything you find (and prove) fault with. I openly admit when I am wrong, have done so in a misquote earlier to you. My ego does not bruise so easily. ;) Just implying I am ignorant of news because the many documented facts I know disagree with your currently unsupported opinion is simply insufficient. Validate your claims by specific facts, figures, and/or logic, please.
WOW - What a conversation going on here. Dawna: I feel for you in that closet in Katrina. It had to be horrifying. We evacuated for Katrina (because we were right on the water and knew all would be lost) and we were berated for not evacuating to Picayune to spend it with family. Our philosophy (resources permitting) is if you are going to leave for a storm, get out of the path completely. We now live on high ground (51 feet) but would still evacuate (even though we are COMPLETELY PREPARED) in the event of Cat 3 or higher effects even though I stayed in Camille and countless other storms when I lived away from the water. East-West is not necessarily the answer and the reason people were forced to go north from Slidell and NO was because MS ppl had to evacuate as well.
All that being said, everyone does not have the resources to get hotels or drive long distances and by the same token, some of those same people who do not have the resoures to leave, also don't have the resources to be COMPLETELY prepared. But if there is a mandatory evacuation, the most important thing is your life. It cannot be replaced. At the very least go to a shelter. Having a two-story house is not a guarantee - a tornado can hit it and flatten it before you ever saw it coming.
Ike - The storm surge in Ike, luckily turned out to be less than they anticipated. For those poor souls in TX who did not make it, I pray for their families. Unfortunately, even though the model track kept showing a northward trend towards Galveston and Houston, the call for evacuation came too late for many. By the time some tried to leave the water was too high to get out. And thus the reason why many don't listen to the government officials.
SO - Watch the weather, stay informed, make a decision early and leave if you are in the cone of error. And sometimes our wonderful officials don't make the right call or make the call too late because instead of thinking of protecting life, they are worried about protecting business and income flow.
And as someone pointed out, Katrina made landfall in Mississippi. They eye passed over BSL, Dhead and Pass Christian. We were ground zero.
Now the folks in Texas are dealing with what we had to deal with just 3 short years ago. Let's think of them at this time and put aside our own issues and do what we can to help, even if all we have to offer is a prayer.
"May it also be known that half of Galveston island is fine .." random you like for me to post specific stats let me see how you come up with half of Galveston Island is fine? You do know Galveston and the Galveston Island areas are different right?
Post a link or anything that says 50% of Galveston Island is okie dokie.
Thank you sciencegal....and you are absolutely correct. Let's all not be PART OF THE PROBLEM....let's be part of the SOLUTION. Talk to your neighbors; find out their plan if possible; offer to lend a helping hand; make suggestions; share your survival items. We met all our neighbors after Katrina and they will be life-long friends now. Prayer? My friends, PRAYER is the BEST that we can do for EVERYONE. Pray for education; patience; tolerance for mankind; for our officials to make wise decisions and intellegent decisions. Contraflow will be improved. I always like to believe that we learn from mistakes. How else could we have progressed as far as we have? NO ONE has all the answers to ANYTHING. I leave you all with prayer and aren't we so very lucky that we have the FREEDOM to blog and voice our opinions? Think about it. Have a good night and God Bless You ALL.
"random you like for me to post specific stats let me see how you come up with half of Galveston Island is fine?" A picture is worth a thousand words, as are videos, and plenty of them exist (as well as articles that are nigh on 1000 words). Still no supporting facts, that's fine ... good luck to you Caveman, it's been real. This non-productive tangent is going nowhere fast so I won't perpetuate it any further.
Sorry to Bob and everybody else for my participation in something that went astray from the supposed topic at hand. As properly pointed out, many people are in dire straits right now so this isn't really the time for ego gratification. For now, let's focus attention on those who really need it, and maybe ponder solutions to address future problems that all on the Gulf Coast will face sooner or later.
Earlier Saturday, Texas Gov. Rick Perry warned that no one would be allowed back on Galveston except emergency personnel. He said people already on the island could stay, but anyone who leaves won't be allowed back in until the island is deemed safe. NPR
Galveston City Manager Steve LeBlanc says 17 buildings and homes burned to ground during the height of Ike's fury because the storm's dangerous conditions prevented firefighters from reaching the structures to put out the flames. Houston Chronical
There is no water or electricity on the island, and the main hospital, the University of Texas Medical Branch, is flying critical care patients to other facilities because it could no longer care for them.
The death toll includes at least five in the battered barrier island city of Galveston. With the hurricane transforming the popular destination into a debris-covered ghost town, Mayor Lyda Ann Thomas warned residents to stay away, possibly for weeks, until the most pressing services are restored.
The Associated Press
Doesn't sound like half of Galveston Island is fine.
Too funny you ask for facts from me and in return I ask for the same and you run. I guess you did a little big of googling and found out otherwise about the condition of Galveston Island. Maybe you should email Gov. Perry, the Mayor of Galveston, Fema, RedCross and let them know half of Galveston Island is fine. You do know the island was all pretty much under water at a point?
sorry Bob ole random had started this little debate.
The solution is for people to leave early and not wait til officials make it mandatory. A large % of the pop are able to get off of work and afford to leave early and they should.
Well Caveman, I agree that people should get out early...but, with a difference.
Fact is, there will always be people who THINK that they can weather the storm, THINK that their two story home (with the generator on the 1st floor, lol) and 2 boxes of pizza rolls will be enough. .....MAYBE they think it's enough because there is NO money to leave, no money for a hotel room or gas to travel. So, what can be done to make it safer for them? Shelters? Look at the Superdome what happened...
Even having said that, I think that those that died in the Superdome was small compared to those who would have stayed home...
I just think we can't be short sighted and think that everyone has the means or ability to do the best thing for themselves. Should the government help? It's my money, your money and I'd rather see it save lives rather than buy another Mercedes for another Washington politician.
Some people are mentally ill, some just ill, some weak, some old...some very very poor. Something else needs to happen, because people WILL stay again and again, will not be prepared (can you REALLY BE?) and history will repeat itself unless we do something differently!
Galveston's West End is still a mystery...and I suspect the death toll will climb. But, I feel there is no use blaming these folks...now they just need help!
Stormzz
Oh...I like the back roads ideas too. But, how can this be organized and easy for people? I mean..."buy and atlas?" My neighbor couldn't read a map if his life depended upon it...no way!
I know that some of you hate it that people have to be hand held and spoon fed, but folks are just often simple and terrified...they don't know what to do. I for one want someone elected by me, and paid by me...to tell 'em. I don't want to be arrogant in thinking that the only situation that anyone could have, is mine...
Sorry for all of the messages, Bob...but it's emotional, cuz we all know we'll deal with this again. Maybe folks talking about it...hey someone can come up with an answer.
Ya'll have a great night...
Stormzz
Caveman, are you for real? I know the "answer a question with a question" game. Nothing in your "proof" indicates percentage of island destroyed, nothing about what is safe, and the reason why residents are being kept out is lack of electricity, water, hospital services (and the normal stuff commonly called infrastructure) that can sustain a population dependent on conveniences. Now, let's hear the more common sense reason why those who are there can stay and those that left can't return.
credits: Posted: 5:26 PM Sep 15, 2008
Last Updated: 5:26 PM Sep 15, 2008
Reporter: CNN
"Galveston cannot safely at this point accommodate its population," City Manager Steve LeBlanc said at a news conference.
And LeBlanc warned those who heeded evacuation warnings not to return to the island.
"We would go in a downward spiral if everybody started coming back," he said. "Our resources are stretched to the max."
The beauty of this is it doesn't contradict your quoted speech, but you didn't actually read the speech objectively, rather just used it to try and support something it never said or even alluded to.
Now we can agree to disagree or you can try to convince people that Galveston Island is in a state far worse off than it actually is. My, how this reminds me of people telling me I was living in roof-high floodwater during Katrina while I sat on the porch chatting on the phone in my stone-dry neighborhood while the National Guard choppers buzzed overhead. 20% of New Orleans was also fine, but many people refuse to believe that, insisting it was all underwater. I imagine some people in Galveston can relate to this memory.
Bob is going to ban me after my first day actually participating in his blog, watch. ;) Seriously, I don't mean to perpetuate this but it really annoys me when someone tries .. there is no way to say this nicely so I won't even try ... suffice it to say video footage of the island is more believable than one's unfounded opinion.
Hey Random...
Now that you've gotten it out of your system, how about just giving us some good ideas...your thoughts about the topic at hand. You'll likely feel better...as getting into debates with Caveman doesn't change anything. Remember, he lives in a cave!! :)
If Caveman, me, you, or anyone posts erroneous information, Bob won't hesitate to set the record straight. Just be patient, and give your opinion. No need to argue...SOMEONE has to stop the debate! :)
Contraflow?
Stormzz
I tried, stormzz, ending it just didn't pan out too well. ;) To the bigger issue of contraflow .. I just can't see any clear cut quick fix solution. The term bottleneck is almost literal. How do you squeeze the population of, as with Gustav, the entire portion of a state through a few major roads and some backroads and avoid massive congestion? I've been told they also did some airplane rides out (excellent idea, but it's sort of a drop in the bucket). That is why my first comment addressed making use of the river. I can't see anyway to squeeze all those people through such few thoroughfares in such a short time. And, let's face it, it isn't really proper to issue a mandatory evac until a scant amount of days before a hit is imminent, or risk many "crying wolf" incidents. Leaving well before landfall would result in many expensive voluntary false alarms (and possible job loss from unsympathetic employers). I'm just not sure anyone can manage an equation that makes this anything less that an utter traffic nightmare. In a sense, I almost think it would be more feasible to try and construct something to stop the surge from hitting populated areas, but that all comes back to the barrier islands issue.
The future doesn't really look too bright, despite what is done with the islands and levees. The oceans are said to be rising, the coast is eroding, and putting those two things together just doesn't bode well for many areas along the gulf coast, especially near the marshlands.
If there is a solution I'd love to hear it, but ... I have to think that any solution would have to be drastic and so expensive that I'm not really convinced taxpayers would go for it. I try to be realistic, never too optimistic or pessimistic, but sometimes I am inclined to believe that we can't out-tech mother nature. This is one topic in which I would LOVE to be proven wrong on, trust me.
Random...lol.
About the river idea...I have to tell you, I'm not getting on the water, or a boat when a storm is coming. NO WAY!
A friend from up north asked me why high speed trains aren't constructed here, that go north through LA, up to Memphis, then circle down through MS...it could handle huge amounts of people. Sounds great in theory, but we have a gas crisis and no mass transit exists, so they would do this for us folk on the coast why?
I think that the frustration here, is that your sentiments say what many of us fear, that no great solution exists. But being the ever optimist, I'd like to think that improving MANY evacuation options will result in an overall improvement in the grand plan.
I think that the trains and buses were fairly successful for New Orleans, so maybe a similar plan needs to be enacted for other parishes. Then, a reasonable and guided re-entry plan enacted.
I'll give an example...I received a paper from some government agency on Thursday before Gustav hit, saying that I could get priority re-entry by applying for a badge with the proper credentials. WHAT? How was I to do this two days before evacuation? WHY was this not done 2 YEARS ago, instead of 2 days before? I mean, the lack of planning is astounding to me. What, did the planners come up with this re-entry badge when they realized we were going to deal with a storm?
Accountability? I think that our leaders need to be held accountable...IF I were to leave (I would not) me and my .45 caliber were gonna be all the badge I needed. Sounds harsh, but it infuriated me that after Katrina, someone JUST came up with a plan, lol. FUnny indeed!
Thanks...I really am going now, lol
Oh, Sciencegal, nice to see you again! :)
Stormzz
Hey, stormzz, now you're coming up with some of those radical ideas that may actually be able to solve our contraflow dilemma. To have any substantial brainstorming I would need a lot more engineering knowledge than I have, but to think if a highspeed rail system does offer a direct solution to the problem. There are other fuels that can power engines, though our technological advances still have quite a way to go before they could power something equivalent to a jet propulsion engine. There's also the issue about how to route a rail system. I imagine there would be much resistance if it involves demolishing people's homes to construct one. But, maybe just so I can try to bring my river idea back to life, I wonder if it would be feasible to build it over the river without interfering with ships traffic or the naturalistic appreciation of a nice river view. I would think it would have to be above ground or the first untimely flooding could render it useless when it is needed most. To me, the basic concept of having such a transit system is the most cost efficient and practical idea I have heard mentioned yet that could actually put a significant dent in the problem .. great idea.
A yet wilder idea is one that has actually come to fruition, although I am lacking much detail ... Holland is known for having some city, or at least a partial one, that can float to an extent. It at least allows a little play in the foundation without causing wires and plumbing to snap apart. The expense for such a plan would probably be so incredible that the idea would never even be considered here, especially since we have so much land near the coast across the U.S. Even Galveston was way ahead of their time after the hurricane of 1900 when they dredged the surrounding area and used it to raise the ground level of the island. Where there is a strong enough will there is a way, just not something that would come without an extraordinary expense.
As far as your inclination to use the river as an evacuation route, lol ... it's funny because I totally relate to it. There's irony in living in a region that is surrounded by water and so many people still have an issue with water .. but that is probably largely because it is the very water that surrounds us that poses the greatest risk of all doomsday scenarios. I even developed an aversion to roof-tops just because of all the videos I've seen of people stranded on them .. it really messes with one's psychology. I can't even imagine how badly those stranded are actually scarred by the events.
I can hardly believe this is the first I've heard of the badge issues. You mean after all the problems trying to assign badge equivalents three years ago during the evacuation ... they still waited to the very last minute? Someone definitely dropped the ball on that one, there's no excuse. Is there any communication between the public and those actually responsible for devising these plans? If not, there needs to be. It wouldn't be too difficult to have an intermediary write down general complains and grievances about what doesn't work and then go over each issue that needs to be addressed to come up with a comprehensive plan that at least takes care of the foreseeable problems. There has to be a better way than hoping good ideas generate enough buzz for a writer or reporter to actually have to ask elected officials the common-sense questions to cause lightbulbs to click on above their heads. The sense of disconnect between the people and the planners really needs to be bridged, like yesterday.
Thank you, stormzz, for going with that out-of-the-box thinking, especially since nothing within the box seems to offer much promise. Bold and drastic measures IMO are needed to give me (and possibly many others) a sustainable strain of hope to hang onto for the survival of this region. Ya know, something just crazy enough that it may actually work. I like. :)
A massive train system would never get off the ground because nobody would ever invest in it espeacially in a tanking economy. Plus a railroad systme would just set barely used during the off seasons and the up keep would be enormous.
If people cannot afford to evacuate then may be they need to rethink where they live and start making plans for the future which may be to relocate farther north.
Mandatory evacs are called upon as a last resort when public officials don't see anybody taking a storm seriously and leaving on their own.
Instead of spending millions or even billions on transist systems to get people out of harms way they can spend much less on educating everyone (should already be educated by now) on how to get out of harms way on their own. People need to educate themselves and understand that public officials are not their parents and to make decisions on their own.
The one then that will make hurricane evacuations work is common sense. Don't wait til the day before landfall to decide to gas up, don't wait til 2 days out to go buy supplies, don't wait til the storm is making landfall to decide it is time to leave et.. common sense is all that is needed. If you have common sense you will do just fine.
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